Curse

Aera Lure · Nov 11, 2007, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Epic laziness to get 6 maxed titles on all characters, all of the PvE-skill related tracks, just for completing them once on any character.

The only reason to want this is for easy KoaBD tracking, since as I pointed out, the skills come to any character that plays the campaign at a level where they are fully usable. They are then easy to get to level 8 with all but a little bit of time on any character for any track you want to use for that character, but not to max on all characters. This is what I mean by six "free" maxed titles. Obviously you have to max them once somewhere, but then you get them everywhere? I dont think so.

This topic fails completely if this is all some 25 pages of discussion has been about. I thought by "grind" people meant any and all of the PvE titles, as one definition of grind is not necessarily negative, but simply anything you do in some repeated fashion, whereby all games have grind of some sort, they just differ in the manner. There is legitimate complaint about Treasure Hunter and Wisdom not being account-wide, but really now...

If you want to max these on all characters across your account, go for it. It is going to be work as you point out, and should be. All characters are perfectly playable with ranks of 5 and any one character can easily get the preferred one or two tracks to level 8 that they want to use, and use the skills for the track effectively.

Its almost laughable, but really, feel free to continue petitioning Anet for it.

freekedoutfish · Nov 11, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Thats why only the grind titles and not any skill based ones would be subject to change.

Does having Incorrigible Ale-Hound show they really know how to play monk?
Does having Source of Wisdom show the necro knows what he is doing?
Does having Legendary Delver prove the warrior can play well?

At the end of the day KOABD doesnt show skill either, nor does the lack of it make we wonder if the player knows what they are doing. It can easily be made up of purely the grind titles.

*edit*

Sorry about that meant to edit my above post.

1) Who are you to argue whether a title requires skill or time to complete?

2) Reagardless of that, once you maxed out 5 of those account based titles, you are giving a character KOABD who doesnt deserve it. Even less so if those 5 maxed titles (as you put it) only require time to complete and NOT skill.

So you end up with a lvl1 with KOABD which was accomplished by doing nothing but maxing non-skill related titles?

How doesnt that belittle KOABD?

The entire thread is pointless because we have huge varied opinions about

1) what grind is.
2) whether a title shows skill or time.
3) which titles fall under grind.

you could only make the /signed people happy by making all titles account based and you can only keep the /not signed people happy by leaving it as it is.

You cant please both sides!

This entire thread has gone on too long, because no one can decide or define what titles are or aarent grind. A title you call grind I may not. A title I call grnd you may not. A title I say requires skill you say requires just time. A title I say requires just time, you say requires skill.

Its a point debate because it will never get resolved!

But what can be said to be fact, is that if you make all the OP'ers titles account based, it will have knock on events elsewhere. Such as the KOABD title. But there are people in here who dont care about that, aslong as they get what they want.

Thats another reason this thread should just end, because there ARE knock on effects to making all the listed titles account based. But people dont want to listen or accept those effects, because it goes against what they want.

If people are unwilling to accept these changes will effect other aspects and respect those effects, then you cant expect people to sign this idea!

I dont want KOABD effected because I feel it carries prestige and that prestige should remain individual and not account based because its pve and not pvp. But you dont agree because it gets in the way of your wants.

If making these changes had absolutely no knock on effects and didnt turn other aspects of the game on their head, then I would sign it. But it does!

1) KOABD!

It removes the prestige!

2) Having players start NF and GWEN with an instant +damage and + protection against certain creatures.

How can a low level player in NF, when they have never been there, have added damage against abaddons creatures from the start? How can a player entering GWEN without having ever been there, have added damage against destroyers, extra energy or extra damage against the char from the start?

3) The unfair advantage on new players who enter those same campaigns without those advantages.

New players wont have that instant damage and protection or energy. It creates an unfair advantage that makes its unbalanced. You will find people cant enter teams unless they have maxed titles and new players will be alienated.

4) Players being able to aquire pve only skills and have them be instantly maxed out.

Again, how can a player who has never set foot in NF before or GWEN be allowed to aquire a pve only skill from those campaigns and have them be instantly maxed?

It makes their gameplay far easier when your talking about alkar's acid and alike. Why should they have that instant advantage over new players? How does that individual character deserve that when they have only just enter GWEN?

5) It makes no sense for the storylines!

Those playes have only just entered NF or GWEN, so how can they have maxed status effects or pve only skills? It makes no sense! It turns the entire storyline on its head, if you can completely bypass it and have stuff maxed from the instance you begin.

Your meant to earn this stuff, otherwise why play?

But yourself and others dont want to hear that, you dont care about the impacts on anything aslong as you get what you want. If those impacts didnt exist I would sign this. But they do.

Isileth · Nov 11, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

1) Who are you to argue whether a title requires skill or time to complete?

Because we can define skill and time?

Something like protector can only be achieved by doing it in one go. If you mess up you have to start again.

Something like drunkard you cant fail. As long as you have enough time and funds you cant possibly not achieve it.

Something like the rep titles can be achived with no skill given enough time. Even if you can only get 50 points an hour, given enough time you would get it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

2) Reagardless of that, once you maxed out 5 of those account based titles, you are giving a character KOABD who doesnt deserve it. Even less so if those 5 maxed titles (as you put it) only require time to complete and NOT skill.

So you end up with a lvl1 with KOABD which was accomplished by doing nothing but maxing non-skill related titles?

How doesnt that belittle KOABD?

The point is its not the char who spent the time doing. The player behind the char is the one who achieved it. So if the player has achieved them on one char when he switched has he still achieved them? Of course they have. Why cant they show that?

Again why is a it a problem for a lvl1 to have KOABD? Its the PLAYER controlling the char who has been rewarded.

Again I ask you, do you think having storage and passing items and gold across is wrong? Because the char didnt achieve that did they?

Its the player who plays the game. The char left on its own wouldnt go off and start farming rep.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

The entire thread is pointless because we have huge varied opinions about

1) what grind is.
2) whether a title shows skill or time.
3) which titles fall under grind.

you could only make the /signed people happy by making all titles account based and you can only keep the /not signed people happy by leaving it as it is.

You cant please both sides!

Actually its only being asked for certain titles to be changed. Those that can be achieved with no skill requirements. Yes they may take longer with no skill, but they are still possible to do. Anything that requires skill, and therefore would change from proffesion to proffesion should remain as is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

This entire thread has gone on too long, because no one can decide or define what titles are or aarent grind. A title you call grind I may not. A title I call grnd you may not. A title I say requires skill you say requires just time. A title I say requires just time, you say requires skill.

Its a point debate because it will never get resolved!

Based on that should we stop debating religion? Gravity?
Just because two sides dont agree doesnt mean its pointless.

As for it being "Epic laziness" I and many others obviousely dont think thats true. I feel the current system could be improved. I feel that because its me who achieved the title, its me who should be able to display that.

*Edit to include replies to freekedoutfish's edit*

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I dont want KOABD effected because I feel it carries prestige and that prestige should remain individual.

And guess who is the individual who achieved it. Thats right it was the player not the char.

Going beyond that the title doesnt mean anything. As I said with all the titles that can be achieved through grind alone it shows nothing. Besides, what effect does more characters having KOABD have?

To get it you must have done as much work as anyone who got it on an individual char. Just because one player likes to play multiple chars and another sticks with one means the one who switched should be denied the title even though he did just as much as the player who sticks with one char?

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

You will find people cant enter teams unless they have maxed titles and new players will be alienated.

7 heroes

But let me ask you this. If it means so much that a new player wont get into a team over it, why does having it at a low level not matter when its used in the argument against the change? According to you (Possibly not you but another poster) it doesnt make any skills unusable, you can still get by fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Your meant to earn this stuff, otherwise why play?

Guess what, I did earn it

Just because I chose to max title x on char y and title b on char c etc, does that mean ive achieved less than someone who did it all on the same char? Havent I as the player had to do exactly the same as you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

But yourself and others dont want to hear that, you dont care about the impacts on anything aslong as you get what you want. If those impacts didnt exist I would sign this. But they do.

Please dont try and make me out as some evil self centered person. The point of threads like this is so people can discuss the pros and cons. You have said why you think it would be a bad idea, just because I dont agree doesnt make mean I dont care about others.

I just dont agree with what you have said. I dont think a title losing value is a valid argument against, the ammount of people with it is constantly increasing, with so many grind titles and runners for some of the skill based ones does it show anything anyways?

I dont agree it will effect new players as you suggest because unless they are in some high end Guild that demands set builds no PuG, friend or guild is going to refuse to play with them. (Although perhaps PuGs would, your standard ones just doing the missions unlikely. But PuGs for farming, elite areas etc yes) But as a new player why are they there anyways?

Aera Lure · Nov 11, 2007, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

As for it being "Epic laziness" I and many others obviousely dont think thats true. I feel the current system could be improved. I feel that because its me who achieved the title, its me who should be able to display that.

Well, you and others that want six max titles account-wide easily, yes. I can see where there would be more that would want this than less. Certainly. I think its simply asking a lot to be able to max the six on a character and suddenly have KoaBD 1 on all of your account characters. It would really necessitate a change to the KoaBD track.

freekedoutfish · Nov 11, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Again I ask you, do you think having storage and passing items and gold across is wrong? Because the char didnt achieve that did they?

Its the player who plays the game. The char left on its own wouldnt go off and start farming rep.

Passing items between chars is trade and commerce!

Making titles account based and allowing people to use the status effects and/or have maxed pve only skills, they havent earnt is a far different thing.

It just doesnt make sense in terms of the storyline why a player has a maxed LB, SS or GWEN title when they have barely set foot into that land!

Why can you and others not understand the principle of pve being an individual experience for the character you play! It cant be account wide because that makes no sense. Why plan an MMO if you want everything your character achieves to be available to all your chars?

Why keep playing! That just removes a huge amount of replayability.

Should we make certan missions account based because they dont require skill and are easy and just take time to do?

Isileth · Nov 11, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Why keep playing! That just removes a huge amount of replayability.

Because titles arent everything?

As long as im having fun I will continue to play.

Now this change would make it more fun for me, because I dont want to play with just 1 char, I want to be able to play different proffesions. But I also want to get a title should I want to. Not because I care what someone else thinks about me when I display it, but because its something I would like to achieve.

And again how does it cheapen KOABD? No one who hasnt achieved the requirements can get it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Why can you and others not understand the principle of pve being an individual experience for the character you play! It cant be account wide because that makes no sense. Why plan an MMO if you want everything your character achieves to be available to all your chars?

pve is an experience for me. Im fairly sure my char doesnt have much to say about it. If people want to rp it as a char going through the game they can. They can not turn of titles if they dont want the bounus until they think they deserve it. But not everyone roleplays their char.

When I play its me controlling a char. Its fun and I enjoy it.

As for the MMO comment, GW isnt an MMO. Also who says thats the only reason you can play it for? Im not playing for gear or fame. Im playing for fun.

If there is a way that can make the game more fun thats great. Grinding to me isnt fun. Yet having titles ive already achieved on other chars, and therefore the advantages of them, would make the game more fun for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

Well, you and others that want six max titles account-wide easily

No not at all. I can obviousely only speak for myself here but I highly doubt thats the intention of the majority either. I feel the current system punishes people who play multiple chars. It stops anyone who does that from getting KOABD, even though they may have achieved exactly the same titles as someone else who does have KOABD.

Sleeper Service · Nov 11, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

(...)
No not at all. I can obviousely only speak for myself here but I highly doubt thats the intention of the majority either. I feel the current system punishes people who play multiple chars. It stops anyone who does that from getting KOABD, even though they may have achieved exactly the same titles as someone else who does have KOABD.

nope never has been my personal intention either, from what most people (all) favour that has never been the case as well.

it is about punishing people who play multiple chars and profiting as much as possible from the game. When I bought into GW there were NO titles, i played 8 separate chars regularly. And they all finished Chapters 1 and 2. When NF came out i bought an extra 2 slots....played through with my main and slamed against the grind for skills wall.

Result? now i play one toon. The prospect of mindlessly repeating SS/LB runs and farming those stupid EN zones over and over and over again just to get correct effects is just ridiculous.

people who enjoy(ed) playing multiple toons, different classes are now punished by the (pve) titles system and yet these same people have played as much net Time as anyone else.

Grind reflects time spent not skill correct?
Then let it reflect REAL time not some virtual toon time.

i couldn't care LESS about koabd track.

lyra_song · Nov 11, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

The next person who says anything along the lines of "the system punishes people who plays multiple chars" is gonna get kicked in the head by me.

Its seriously getting stale.

Playing 1 character heavily has advantages.
Playing many characters heavily has advantages.

The current system is FAIR.

All players have to do the same amount of grind per character. And the OP has already pointed out that the types of grind is very often the same type of action, non-dependant on class.

Players who have more characters have to do more grind but they have more characters with those titles.
Players who have less characters have to do less grind but have less characters with those titles.

Players with many characters have a huge amount of things available to them, in terms of builds, functionality, storage, etc.
Players with few characters are a lot more limited.

Nobody is punishing you for anything. STOP BRINGING IT UP.

How much time YOU HAVE has nothing to do with the game.

There is no punishment angle.

Isileth · Nov 11, 2007, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Players who have more characters have to do more grind but they have more characters with those titles.
Players who have less characters have to do less grind but have less characters with those titles.

Players with many characters have a huge amount of things available to them, in terms of builds, functionality, storage, etc.
Players with few characters are a lot more limited.

Thats kind of the point. The current system requires either you have lots of time or play a single char. Changing it would simply allow everyone to have all the advantages without the disadvantages. Yet to achieve that you would still have to complete the title to begin with.

lyra_song · Nov 11, 2007, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Thats kind of the point. The current system requires either you have lots of time or play a single char. Changing it would simply allow everyone to have all the advantages without the disadvantages. Yet to achieve that you would still have to complete the title to begin with.

Yes, that IS the point. I didn't dispute that.

It's the reasoning that attempts to justify the point that is completely flawed when it uses the "its punishing the player" as its argument.

Isileth · Nov 11, 2007, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Punishing is never really the right word to use I agree. It isnt set out to punish. But because of how it works it favours or rewards one side more than the other.

I dont think for a second this is intentional or that Anet has some evil plan to turn everyone into a single char kind of player.

That doesnt however change the fact that it does favour those who play with fewer chars, as they can spend the same time and do the same things as someone who plays multiple chars yet still come out with something more.

All this is suggesting is it would be nice to have that changed. So that people who do use multiple chars get the same rewards.

So perhaps the argument should look more like "it favours one group of players and it would be nice to have it changed."

Its also something that would be a fairly small change, they already have titles, they already have account wide titles. Its not as if it requires a whole new system to be sorted out.

Navaros · Nov 11, 2007, 09:15 PM // 21:15

All grind-based titles should indeed be account-based.

However, that list also needs to include Legendary Skill Hunter, which is 100% grind.

Vanquisher is also grind and should also be account-based.

Should also include Survivor also as after level 1 of that, it too is mostly grind. Plus characters who were made before Survivor was introduced never had their fair opportunity to get it, which this would fix.

All tiers of KOABD should also be account-based.

Having to repeat any of the insane required grind time for the above titles across multiple characters, is outright ludicrous and should not be necessary. They should all be account-based for that reason.

To avoid getting caught up in semantics with some grind-based titles being excluded, might be better to make all titles that take a ludicrous amount of time be account-based. That's how it shoulda been since day 1. Should definitely be fixed to be that now.

You can't see me · Nov 11, 2007, 09:18 PM // 21:18

I support this thread and it's ideas.

Not because I'm lazy, or want easy titles, but there's an element to the game that I'm getting sick of.

Repetitveness.

To make accomplishments on more than one character, you must retrace your steps.

Retracing your steps across 10 PvE characters across all campaigns is what I've done now. Let me tell you, it was hell. There are no new challenges to face. To go through a campaign, you must prove you can do the missions. On other characters, you must prove it AGAIN. And AGAIN. It's like hearing a very bad echo in a small cave. Campaigning is grinding. It takes little skill, and unescasarry time.

Do you see my point? The game is filled with repetiveness. I feel that making grind based titles, especially ones like drunkard, faction titles, wisdom, skill capturing, and treasure hunter account based would stop some of that repetiveness and maybe give people a chance to do something else.

bilateralrope · Nov 11, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Most GW players are

a. selfish
b. whiny
c. lazy
d. generally impatient.

So....the poll shouldn't tell you much.

It tells us that most GW players that have responded would prefer the change, which is the only thing I wanted those numbers for.

Quote:

Again, /notsigned.

And here you go trying to skew the numbers in your favor.

Isileth · Nov 11, 2007, 09:22 PM // 21:22

*Edit*
To slow, this is aimed at Navaros.

I disagree with Legendary Skill Hunter as taking your char to each boss and capping is different when playing a monk instead of a warrior for example.

Vanquisher is most deffinately a skill title, and the experience is vastly different from proffesion to proffesion.

Survivor again I would keep the same, while it can be farmed it still requires a certain degree of skill. Although I completely agree with it being possible to do with older chars.

KOABD no because it would count skill based titles on other chars.

bilateralrope · Nov 11, 2007, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Playing many characters heavily has advantages.

What advantages do they have to counter the large time investment required just to make them equal to the characters of players with only one character ?

Quote:

All players have to do the same amount of grind per character. And the OP has already pointed out that the types of grind is very often the same type of action, non-dependant on class.

Which is what makes it so boring.

Quote:

Players who have more characters have to do more grind but they have more characters with those titles.

And they have to spend more time doing the repetitive boring tasks just to get their character up to the same stats as someone who only plays that character.

Punishing might not be the right word. But it is certainly discouraging people from playing multiple characters.

Sleeper Service · Nov 11, 2007, 09:35 PM // 21:35

sure feels punishing to ME, beg to differ.

Loviatar · Nov 11, 2007, 10:06 PM // 22:06

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

So no, im not asking for a free title. Im asking to be able to display something that ive achieved.

all right in that case i have an extremely fair compromise.

you can display any title you have earned on any character you choose which satisifies what you have stated many times is what you want......recognition of achievement of that title to show it off

to make it fair to the rest you will not have the bonuses that go with that title except on a character that earned those bonuses.

no instant account wide salvage/lockpick for example.

but since you want to display the title that hardcore farming bonus wont effect you if you dont have it on that character.......right?

BlackSephir · Nov 11, 2007, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Yeah, because all Sunspear, LB, GW pve skills are used for farming.
Owait they aren't
Don't fail again loviatar

Isileth · Nov 11, 2007, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Well to start with I dont have any hardcore farming titles, I only have 2 maxed titles and both are skill based

Second that still doesnt solve the problem that to reach the bounuses takes longer with multiple chars than it does with just 1. Having both the title and the bounus means you only have to complete it the once so you can play lots of chars without the disadvantage of it.